Author Topic: An IMCA type of modified class....  (Read 12890 times)

matt_s86

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Re: An IMCA type of modified class....
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2014, 09:31:52 AM »
A little advice from open e-mod country... don't mix tire brands if you're gonna have a compound rule.  Hoosier Medium seems to be medium.  We got some AR medium tires that durometered in the 30's.  That's fine if you're trying to go fast against Hoosiers in certain conditions, but when we bolted on 4 mediums for a slick track thinking we were smart then smoked them off the car, well, it's not so convenient then.

I forget about the horsepower differences sometimes though.  IMCA cars and Street Stocks can probably use much softer tires than we were able to.  Trying to put 650 HP through an 8" tire can be pretty rough on the rubber. 
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 09:34:14 AM by matt_s86 »

ask0329

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Re: An IMCA type of modified class....
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2014, 10:22:29 AM »
Not taking anything away from either class (IMCA or EMOD), its too bad we all couldnt fall under one set of rules and drasticaly increase the car counts across the NE Region. But trying to get IMCA guys to go EMOD or EMOD guys to go IMCA, would be a nightmare.

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MJRKat

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Re: An IMCA type of modified class....
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2014, 10:25:32 AM »
A little advice from open e-mod country... don't mix tire brands if you're gonna have a compound rule.  Hoosier Medium seems to be medium.  We got some AR medium tires that durometered in the 30's.  That's fine if you're trying to go fast against Hoosiers in certain conditions, but when we bolted on 4 mediums for a slick track thinking we were smart then smoked them off the car, well, it's not so convenient then.

I forget about the horsepower differences sometimes though.  IMCA cars and Street Stocks can probably use much softer tires than we were able to.  Trying to put 650 HP through an 8" tire can be pretty rough on the rubber.

It would be a specific tire, no running different compounds. Some IMCA that run in the front, aren't that far off from the 550-600hp range I don't think. I know my motor was somewhere in that range. I have talked to guys in the street stocks, and they are getting about the same amount of time out of their tires as we do in the IMCA. I will put that theory to the test this year as I will be in the Street Stocks, and will get a better idea on wear comparison. I know in my IMCA, when I wasn't handling good, and spinning, I wore the tires a lot more than when the car was hooked up, and it seems that would hold true with if you had a softer tire, it would hook up easier, and not get as much wear as often, but I could be wrong..It's been awhile since I have been on a soft tire..lol

Not taking anything away from either class (IMCA or EMOD), its too bad we all couldnt fall under one set of rules and drasticaly increase the car counts across the NE Region. But trying to get IMCA guys to go EMOD or EMOD guys to go IMCA, would be a nightmare.



Well Andy, Emods are goin to the G60 tire for this coming year, at least last I heard, so that part of it wouldn't be so bad. Once IMCA goes to the Quick Change(if they do, just a theory of mine they will), it would make it a lot easier for guys to run both..


    Groundpounder

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    Re: An IMCA type of modified class....
    « Reply #18 on: January 06, 2014, 12:31:22 PM »

    The point of the heads is to limit the Hp so that it keeps the cost down of the engine, the same holds true with the gear rule. 

    And that little fallacy right there has ruined more than one class through the years.  First of all, there is no foolproof way to tech ported heads.  The best is probably the tools Brodix has available for their spec heads, so if you want to mandate that everyone run those heads, it might work.  Otherwise, people will just spend more money than they are now to get all they can out of the heads within the new restrictive rules. The fact that IMCA only allows cast iron heads is a good thing, since all the exotic head castings are in aluminum (UMP/E-mods miss the boat here).  I don't know if anyone is doing it yet, but it might be a good idea to add a rule prohibiting any welding on the heads so the ports can't be raised beyond what the original casting allows. Other than that, leave the engine rules alone.
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    no74falcon

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    Re: An IMCA type of modified class....
    « Reply #19 on: January 06, 2014, 12:46:54 PM »
    You are answering your own question about the tires...
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    MJRKat

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    Re: An IMCA type of modified class....
    « Reply #20 on: January 06, 2014, 04:22:04 PM »

    The point of the heads is to limit the Hp so that it keeps the cost down of the engine, the same holds true with the gear rule. 

    And that little fallacy right there has ruined more than one class through the years.  First of all, there is no foolproof way to tech ported heads.  The best is probably the tools Brodix has available for their spec heads, so if you want to mandate that everyone run those heads, it might work.  Otherwise, people will just spend more money than they are now to get all they can out of the heads within the new restrictive rules. The fact that IMCA only allows cast iron heads is a good thing, since all the exotic head castings are in aluminum (UMP/E-mods miss the boat here).  I don't know if anyone is doing it yet, but it might be a good idea to add a rule prohibiting any welding on the heads so the ports can't be raised beyond what the original casting allows. Other than that, leave the engine rules alone.

    Which classes are those? I'm not familiar with classes with a spec head rule that have gone by the way side..Not being smart here, asking a serious question, I didn't know of any specifically that have had this happen, if it's more up north, and/or asphalt that would probably be why.

    You are answering your own question about the tires...

    I don't quite get that Allen..Please reiterate..lol


      Groundpounder

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      Re: An IMCA type of modified class....
      « Reply #21 on: January 06, 2014, 04:56:10 PM »

      The point of the heads is to limit the Hp so that it keeps the cost down of the engine, the same holds true with the gear rule. 

      And that little fallacy right there has ruined more than one class through the years.  First of all, there is no foolproof way to tech ported heads.  The best is probably the tools Brodix has available for their spec heads, so if you want to mandate that everyone run those heads, it might work.  Otherwise, people will just spend more money than they are now to get all they can out of the heads within the new restrictive rules. The fact that IMCA only allows cast iron heads is a good thing, since all the exotic head castings are in aluminum (UMP/E-mods miss the boat here).  I don't know if anyone is doing it yet, but it might be a good idea to add a rule prohibiting any welding on the heads so the ports can't be raised beyond what the original casting allows. Other than that, leave the engine rules alone.

      Which classes are those? I'm not familiar with classes with a spec head rule that have gone by the way side..Not being smart here, asking a serious question, I didn't know of any specifically that have had this happen, if it's more up north, and/or asphalt that would probably be why.



      I wasn't necessarily referring to spec heads, but rather rules "to limit the Hp" in general. The Nascar modified rules are a prime example. They implemented rules back in the 80's to  reduce horsepower (in part to slow the cars down for safety reasons) and all it did was drive the cost up.  A top of the line Hutter engine in '87 was $17,500. Today it's around $50k thanks to all the research and development that had to go into getting every last horsepower out of an engine that is choked by a 390 carb and other restrictive engine rules.  Those engines make around 600 hp.  With IMCA rules, you can make 600 hp for probably a quarter of the price, maybe less. 

      Lower horsepower doesn't automatically mean lower cost. Whenever you can use all the hp that you can make, engines are going to be more expensive because the engine builders will have to look for ways around the restrictions to squeeze out every last hp.  When traction is the limiting factor, a lower cost engine can compete with a more expensive one on even ground. Just because someone is spending big bucks on an IMCA engine doesn't mean you have to spend the same to be competitive with him. That's been the guiding principle of IMCA for over 30 years, and it's served them well. Of course now they've gone and screwed that up by allowing the 604 crate.
      "Crate engines are to racing what Tofurkey is to Thanksgiving" - Karl Fredrickson
      Distrust all men in whom the impulse to punish is powerful. - Friedrich Nietzsche
      We are descended in spirit from revolutionaries and rebels -- men and women who dare to dissent from accepted doctrine. - D. Eisenhower

      MJRKat

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      Re: An IMCA type of modified class....
      « Reply #22 on: January 06, 2014, 06:50:05 PM »
      Ok, gotcha..Yeah, I just don't agree with the crate at all..There is a place for it, but the problem that I see with it is like I said, it has to be teched, and things don't get teched as it is(of course that could hold true with the heads as well, but I was thinking it would still be an easier thing to tech, especially if you still leave the bottom end basically open). I don't believe a carb limitation, or even a Restrictor plate is the right way to go because of what you said about engine builders.

      Back on the crate deal..There are videos online on how to take the cable seals apart that are used, and not ruin them so that you can put them back together, also, there is now a well known Engine shop(CNC Motosports) advertising about putting a little umph in your 604, and how much depends on how much you want to spend. I just don't like the idea of the dang thing, but the only good thing that I think will come out of it, is the fact that I think they are going to have to allow quick changes because of having to fine tune the gearing more often to keep it competitive with the opens. The bad part about the quick change, is they will probably allow steel tubed, which that will pretty much mean you would have to buy a new one instead of being able to pick up a used rear from a Modified, Sportsman, or Late Model guy.

        dirtfan07

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        Re: An IMCA type of modified class....
        « Reply #23 on: January 07, 2014, 08:52:46 AM »
        I was looking at the QC rear in the mod in my garage last night and no way would it fit in a IMCA as is. You could use the center section and ring/pinion (maybe) but that's it. No way IMCA is gonna allow aluminum tubes or birdcages, even if they start allowing QC's,  so buying a used late model rear isn't all that practical either. I don't agree with IMCA allowing QC rears; it's another one of those things that is "gonna save racers money" but will end up bankrupting a lot of budget teams.

        The idea of this post wasn't to question IMCA rules. I think what Matt is trying to say is that LOCALLY, the IMCA's are struggling to win fans/drivers due to their hard tires and the super slick surfaces they race on. NATIONALLY, IMCA is the biggest and most popular group of mods without question but around here it's a tougher sell due to the over-abundence of big tire/small motor classes. Yes, IMCA's tend to have more cautions (not always) than the crate DIRT mods but you don't have to be an engineer to figure out why.

        IMCA= 500-650hp on a hard 8" tire
        Crate= 350hp on a soft 14" tire
        I propose the tracks that have IMCA run them earlier in the show; when their is still some bite in the track. None of the other classes in the N.E. are as traction challenged as IMCA so why not give them the track when it has what little grip most tracks offer? I also gotta agree with Groundpounder; better tires would only make for more expensive motors. For the money the IMCAs run for? That seems like a bad idea
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        no74falcon

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        Re: An IMCA type of modified class....
        « Reply #24 on: January 07, 2014, 10:28:30 AM »
        Matt, If you are able to buzz your tires now, you have too much horsepower, correct? So you want a softer tire, which means it will hook up better? Then what? More horsepower will be wanted, engine cost goes up. More power to the wheels, faster speeds, tires will wear faster, increasing purchases... Cost goes up. Pretty soon, horsepower is too much, tires start buzzing again... It's a vicious circle. I think originally IMCA offered one tire, with one compound. Their idea was to keep the horsepower manageable to that tire, which kept engine costs down.  I don't know... I'm not ALWAYS right...  ::)
        « Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 10:56:08 AM by no74falcon »
        Allen Clark
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        harris9cat

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        Re: An IMCA type of modified class....
        « Reply #25 on: January 07, 2014, 11:21:18 AM »
        QC is the way to go soft tire is the way to go.I'm not really sure what imca dose for the guys here but as I see it not much.we have a imca and a ump cars for next year the only reason for the ump car is tire and QC I already have the aluminum head motors I think it won't b long and u will se imca type cars on good tire and QC and sail panels not sure what track but someplace will do it JMO

        Groundpounder

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        Re: An IMCA type of modified class....
        « Reply #26 on: January 07, 2014, 12:42:23 PM »
        Matt, If you are able to buzz your tires now, you have too much horsepower, correct? So you want a softer tire, which means it will hook up better? Then what? More horsepower will be wanted, engine cost goes up. More power to the wheels, faster speeds, tires will wear faster, increasing purchases... Cost goes up. Pretty soon, horsepower is too much, tires start buzzing again... It's a vicious circle. I think originally IMCA offered one tire, with one compound. Their idea was to keep the horsepower manageable to that tire, which kept engine costs down.  I don't know... I'm not ALWAYS right...  ::)

        Allen is exactly right.  If you're spinning the tires, the IMCA philosophy is working just as intended. 
        "Crate engines are to racing what Tofurkey is to Thanksgiving" - Karl Fredrickson
        Distrust all men in whom the impulse to punish is powerful. - Friedrich Nietzsche
        We are descended in spirit from revolutionaries and rebels -- men and women who dare to dissent from accepted doctrine. - D. Eisenhower


        MJRKat

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        Re: An IMCA type of modified class....
        « Reply #27 on: January 07, 2014, 02:24:27 PM »
        Matt, If you are able to buzz your tires now, you have too much horsepower, correct? So you want a softer tire, which means it will hook up better? Then what? More horsepower will be wanted, engine cost goes up. More power to the wheels, faster speeds, tires will wear faster, increasing purchases... Cost goes up. Pretty soon, horsepower is too much, tires start buzzing again... It's a vicious circle. I think originally IMCA offered one tire, with one compound. Their idea was to keep the horsepower manageable to that tire, which kept engine costs down.  I don't know... I'm not ALWAYS right...  ::)

        Here is kind of what I was getting at..A softer tire is easier to hook up(most times), so if you aren't spinning as much, you aren't wearing as much. To give you an example(I know they have different compounds, but not sure exactly what they are running), the sportsman at 5 Mile, some of those guys are getting just as much, if not more laps out of their tires, the street stocks are doing the same with theirs, and I know the Street stock is the softer compound.

        Maybe I'm going about it the wrong way, maybe we just need to go to a 2bll carb instead of a 4? Maybe spec heads isn't the way to go? If we were on better tracks(and by that, I mean softer, one that has more grip with out rocks, or what have you), then maybe our tires would last even longer? I know at I-88, I could get about a month, maybe a bit more out of my rear tires, at 5 Mile, during the summer months, we are lucky to get more than 2 weeks out of them, same goes for Street Stocks, I have also seen nights where Street Stocks have less wear on their tires than ours, even on nights I have been hooked pretty good.

        I could be all wrong, just some things I have seen from my own experience, and some speculation as well.

        QC is the way to go soft tire is the way to go.I'm not really sure what imca dose for the guys here but as I see it not much.we have a imca and a ump cars for next year the only reason for the ump car is tire and QC I already have the aluminum head motors I think it won't b long and u will se imca type cars on good tire and QC and sail panels not sure what track but someplace will do it JMO

        I know IMCA did soften the tire a bit about 2010 a little, I bought tires that were like new, and they were hard as a rock that year, but were used, the new tires that I got(2 that year I think..lol), were a bit softer. I don't think you will ever see IMCA go to a softer tire, like an emod, or anything like that. I do think you will see the quick change come in to play with in the next couple of years though, like I said, with the crate, ya gotta have it, even for running the same track week in and week out.


        Thanks for the input tho guys..Bringing ideas up, and such..

          no74falcon

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          Re: An IMCA type of modified class....
          « Reply #28 on: January 07, 2014, 04:10:17 PM »
          Not to sidetrack the thread, but back when Dad was running his Street Stock in the late 70's on asphalt, they had to run a street D.O.T. tire. I remember him buying a bunch of brand new B.F. Goodrich Belted T/A's, and giving them to a friend who's wife had a Big Block Chevelle, and a very heavy right foot. She would burn 2/3 of the tread off, then give them back to Dad for the race car.  ;D
          Allen Clark
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          MJRKat

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          Re: An IMCA type of modified class....
          « Reply #29 on: January 07, 2014, 05:56:38 PM »
          lol..That's a win, win right there!