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RaceNewYork Discussion => Racing Discussion => Topic started by: Q33 Racing on January 16, 2010, 01:10:38 PM

Title: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: Q33 Racing on January 16, 2010, 01:10:38 PM
Do These words seem strange together "SPRINT CAR & ECONOMICAL" ? Well how about a Sprint Car w/ a 604 crate type class? The cost of a new complete competative dry sump 360 sprint motor hit the 30k+ mark and the "racesaver" 305 motor is getting pricy too. Maybe its time to think about a Sprint Car division that more people can afford..   
Title: Re: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: dirtraceguy on January 16, 2010, 03:20:57 PM
Quite honestly, I think this is a terrible idea. While I am all for saving some money, sprint cars are about bad fast speed and the sound, and Im not so sure that a crate powered sprint car would deliver either.  It wouldnt be on the top of my list to see.

JMO
Title: Re: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: racer76j on January 16, 2010, 03:33:38 PM
there is no way i would spend 30.oo for a ticket to watch a crate sprint.A traveling class like sprints is meant to be bad *****.Crates are gay.What if nascar ran crates?Now that would be funny.
Title: Re: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: Q33 Racing on January 16, 2010, 04:28:57 PM
I have to Agree that a there is nothing better then a 410 or 360 blasting away at  8500+rpm and thats the show I would prefer.
  But by no means was this intended to replace those classes or even travel.
Just an Idea for beginners without deep pockets to have fun in a full size sprint car. I have seen some different tracks in the midwest and west coast running multiple level full size sprint classes. Pulling some new blood into an entry class may help out the future of the big guys. 
Title: Re: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: SpacieT on January 16, 2010, 07:48:02 PM
hey u guys knock the 604 and havent even ran it. we ran one in a 358 mod and if u ran it u will be impressed. it will make the good drivers better and the other drivers made to learn how to do it right. long story short just try it
Title: Re: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: agitator57 on January 16, 2010, 08:08:15 PM
If they could be started on their own, get tireed of waitin on push trucks... would be neat for someone to try one to see how it performed, cars are lite enuff  the performance might b surprising...
Title: Re: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: Chargincharlie on January 16, 2010, 09:29:54 PM
Sounds good to me..
Title: Re: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: JDK34j on January 16, 2010, 10:01:24 PM
I think it would be a good idea. The introduction of the Crate motor has opened the doors to alot of racers whom otherwise would be left with no choice but the 4 cyl, fwd classes. Before you bash, there is absolutely nothing wrong with those classes. The crate has allowed guys to take the time to learn set-up, driveability, and characteristics of a full blown race chassis, be it LM, Mod, or perhaps even sprints. I could only see how this can aide our sport by allowing more qualified drivers to enter the classes where big money is spent and not a very good place to "learn". I know there are alot of individuals out there whom absolutley despise the crate motor, but really need to take a step back and see the impact it will have on the sport, long term. Most tracks that run crate classes now have full fields in their respective class, some stay, some move up, some move out, bottom line is those that move up do so with experience in the type of car, those that stay have an affordable platform to race a "full blown" chassis set-up, and those that move out had the oppurtunity to do something they could not afford to do in the past. I say put the crate in a sprint and bring them back to a weekly show, where you dont have to travel hrs or spend 50$ on a ticket, perhaps the guys spending really big $$ would appreciate the "minor league" experience an individual could gain before hopping behind the wheel of a monster
Title: Re: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: Jackman on January 16, 2010, 10:51:17 PM
If they were wingless I believe they would be a success. Wingless sprint car racing is something I wish was popular in these parts but it's not. That class would be a refreshing addition to what we have now.
Title: Re: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: Nysprintfan on January 16, 2010, 11:56:37 PM
Couldnt agree with jackman more if it were wingless it wold make all the difference!

Wingless is where its at!
Title: Re: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: crankyhick on January 17, 2010, 05:19:47 AM
You got to be kidding!!!!! Crate engines "MAY" have a place in some classes, but, NOT IN A SPRINT CAR!!!!!!! JMHO
Title: Re: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: gregsy32 on January 17, 2010, 08:45:17 AM
As a fan - crates suck in any class.

As a driver - they are cheap.  (but you can build more hp/torque for the same money with an open)
Title: Re: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: Groundpounder on January 17, 2010, 12:04:11 PM
This has got to be one of the dumbest brain farts I've ever heard.  If you think the 305 sprints are "pricey", then you have no business at all running a sprint car.  Besides that, there are way way too many different divisions in short track racing today.  Adding another completely unnecessary class would just further worsen that situation.

Oh ya, real sprint cars don't have wings.  Slot car racing stinks!
Title: Re: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: Greg Birosh on January 18, 2010, 09:06:48 AM
How would you externally balance an engine when you don't run a flywheel, as in a sprint car?  Beside that, a competitive Racesaver 305 can be built for less than a 604 and you can work on it without worrying about seal bolts.  Just because some choose to spend more, doesn't mean they are making more power.  Plus, if you ever want to move up to a 360, you'll already have fuel injection and a mag.  The point was also mentioned above about too many classes already spreading fans and racers too thin, and that is very valid, although I do like the idea of seeing some non-wing racing closer to home.  But please, no crate engines in sprint cars. 
Title: Re: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: Q33 Racing on January 18, 2010, 01:48:55 PM
  I knew that I was "wackin a bee hive" when I mentioned Crate & Sprint Car in the same post. It causes a stir when ever the topic is brought up with any class.
I think Ground Pounder would still be hitting the " >:(" button if I allowed multiple votes and then strip me of my Atta Boys. ;D

  There just seems to be a bunch of newer Sprint rollers w/ good equipment out there for decent prices.
  I just thought it would be neat if there was a way to utilize a popular motor (well not so popular with everyone) that easy to obtain used, puts out ok power and eazy to resell cause there is a bunch of other classes that use it.
the idea was to utilize whats out there .If it is going to require expensive modifications than it would be a waste of time.

 Unfortunatly the racesaver guys don't get close to the wny area and the only jump is to the ESS,SOS,etc. to run a sprint car.     

 Purhapes the 605 is not the best choice for this car and it would just fall on its face on a tacky track.
 

 
Title: Re: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: Groundpounder on January 18, 2010, 01:57:48 PM

I think Ground Pounder would still be hitting the " >:(" button if I allowed multiple votes and then strip me of my Atta Boys. ;D

I didn't vote at all in your poll.  It's completely bogus since you made it seem like the only option to "big dollar" sprints is your (not so) crate idea. 

Take the wings off and let people build whatever they want for an engine.  You can only put so much hp down without a wing, and the racing is a whole lot better than the slot cars.
Title: Re: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: mod68 on January 19, 2010, 12:30:48 PM
I think its a great idea, without the wing of course. This concept would give a lot of guy's a chance to run a sprint car that otherwise would not get. I would cut up my sportsman stuff next week if a class like this existed.

Then if I ever won the lottery, would make the move into the 360.......
Title: Re: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: Greg Birosh on January 19, 2010, 12:50:01 PM
Take the wings off and let people build whatever they want for an engine.  You can only put so much hp down without a wing
Amen!  Add a hard RR tire, and that is basically the formula for the Michigan Traditional Sprints, and it works very well for them.
Title: Re: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: Q33 Racing on January 19, 2010, 12:51:07 PM
The Topless Idea seems very popular . I'm sure The dirt track owners are keeping an eye on this one.
Title: Re: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: ralph1979 on January 21, 2010, 07:45:21 PM
 it would be good for an entry level sprint  class plus it would prove who the better driver is and there would be less whining about who has more money in a motor....... everyone has the same horsepower.
Title: Re: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: Groundpounder on January 21, 2010, 08:23:42 PM
it would be good for an entry level sprint  class plus it would prove who the better driver is and there would be less whining about who has more money in a motor....... everyone has the same horsepower.
You're dreaming.  Everyone would be whining even more about who's cheating up their crate, who has the fake seals, the track isn't doing enough to make sure they are legal, etc.  Just like in the crate classes now.
Title: Re: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: Achamp0 on February 06, 2010, 08:01:50 AM
Well  Ive ran both types of sprints and back years ago Gary Palone and Gary Smith started a class of full sized sprints with carbs on them they started with a couple then it started taking off. You guys shoot the crates down Im not fond of them but not because of the lack of performance its because of the ones that figured out how to put them on steroids this makes crate racing very dis heartining.Sprints are a crowd pleaser for sure.There are many ways to make them affordable but a 604 crate is not totaly the answer.There should be a class of them with no dry sumps and put a 650 holley on it and run it dont tell me that wont be a fun ride I seen a carb sprint whip the fuel injected sprint on more than one occasion .Good Luck with this
JMO
Title: Re: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: ron.m on February 06, 2010, 10:23:49 AM
Put your crate motors in and come to South Arcade we have an open motor rule let the piece speak for its self if it impresses enough people they will follow if it doesn't work out pull out the crate and drop in the monster.The one good thing about having an open motor rule is if your not happy with your crate pull it apart who cares.I think that giving the right track surface and the way you set up your car you can run near the front.I also agree with go topless JMO
Title: Re: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: sportsman44v on July 15, 2011, 10:24:45 AM
Would there be any interest in a ct 525 crate engine sprint car class
Title: Re: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: dirttrackrocker on July 15, 2011, 10:54:24 AM
To many people trying to reinvent the wheel. There are way to many "bastard" classes out there now.

Tracks need common classes with common rules to their region.

A purely entry level class either 4 cyl or pure stock V8

Street Stocks

A head line division, 358's, Lates,

A secondary division Crates, IMCA

And some special touring shows thrown in throughout the year. Sprints, trucks, etc.

The key is common rules so you can draw from other tracks when they rain out, or ***** someone off.
Title: Re: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: dirtdevil on July 15, 2011, 10:55:15 AM
Your gonna find that most people who decide to run sprint cars have more money than they know what to do with.  Then you a the group of guys who truly don't have the money, but have the talent and/or the desire to run sprints.  You guys all talk about the 30K engines and there are lots of them.  I've won races with the patriot sprints, ESS, ELS, and open shows with a $6,000 360 engine (and yes i still have the receipts to prove it).  In 2003 we were on a good run and we were tore down a few times and that's what was putting me out of business because I could afford to keep putting the thing together.  The nice thing with sprint cars is the set up means alot.  They are very tough to get the things hooked up to put the power to the ground.  Sprint cars are like all forms of racing you'll always have the guys that can't drive a lick and try to make up with it by spending more money, some on legal parts and some on illegal parts.  You have things like traction control that are destroying our sport.  The non driving fools think this makes them look good, but they still suck. 
Now for the spec engine for the sprint cars, that 305 class has become that in my opinion.  You can pick on of those up that's all good stuff for less than 5K.  I'm all game for the crate engines in beginner classes.  The problem is you still have all the jerks that cheat.  I thought the crate mods were the ticket and then you have all the cars getting busted cheating. 
Title: Re: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: Casper60 on July 15, 2011, 11:03:21 AM
I think the 604 may be a bit underpowered to make for good racing. I would do it with a ct525 engine. 600 HP for $7500 and you can't cheat them up. (well you can if your tech is blind)
Title: Re: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: uticamike on July 15, 2011, 11:05:44 AM
Would there be any interest in a ct 525 crate engine sprint car class

Better get used to seeing these on your favorite asphalt Modified touring series. There is talk........  me?  I don't care what they do as long

as they race on pavement...and are entertaining. Yes, wingless for sure. BTW who thinks NASCAR doesn't use a "crate" engine? They don't

call them that but they have so many rules they might as well call them that.
Title: Re: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: ask0329 on July 15, 2011, 11:42:36 AM
It would never work around here. This is NE Dirt mod racing country. Anything less than that and your nothing. I do not feel this way but its the general impression that I get from the typical or casual race fan. NE Dirt Mod snobs. IMCA Mods are some bad @$$ machines but hardly get a nod of consideration from the typical fan. Granted they are catching on a bit more this year but its taken a long time. IMCA, Sprints and LM's are it nationwide but all struggle here in the North East. Now start a crate sprint class? Where would you run? Most tracks are at the limit as it is some with full fields and others with small fiends. People dont have the money right now to support a new class let alone take away drivers from established classes. Its taken 3+ years for crate models to catch on with decent results and they are only drawing 11-16 car fields.

What needs to be done is to develope and introduce 4cyls to new racers. They are the new entry level class. Get the tuner crowd involved. From there they can go mod lites, crate models/crate sportsman or even IMCA mods (insert any secondary support class) Guess what I'm getting at is there is a good system in place. It just needs to be developed. Racing in general needs allot of promotion and introduction to new people. For example why is there not one single race track working in conjuction with the syracuse nationals going on right now in syracuse? Be it getting those guys to a dirt track to show off cars (prior to racing starting to keep em clean) or dirt tracks and their cars at the nationals? Tracks and racecars should be represented in every local parade that happens in this state. Be it a firemans field days or syracuse st patricks day parade. Most of them are free to enter. The possibilities are endless. Adding new classes is not the answer. Promoting and refineing whats already in place is the answer.
Title: Re: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: thewackyracer on July 15, 2011, 11:46:59 AM
525 crate,aluminum block, internally balanced, $8800, requires over a1000 cfm carb for full potential, at 7200 RPM. Don't know if they can last at that RPM.
Title: Re: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: Casper60 on July 15, 2011, 11:59:58 AM
525 crate,aluminum block, internally balanced, $8800, requires over a1000 cfm carb for full potential, at 7200 RPM. Don't know if they can last at that RPM.

Your facts are a little off. They can be had for as little as $7000 new. They do not require a carb that big to reach full potential, and they are designed to run at 6700 rpm. Being that they are a true race engine, they can pull 7200 all day long, but they stop producing power around 6700-6800 rpm mark.

I have one with what would equate to about 4 seasons of dirt track racing on it and other than regular oil changes and 1 valve spring change, we did nothing to it and on it's final dyno pull, had lost less than 1% of what it had right out of the crate.
Title: Re: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: oldguy on July 15, 2011, 01:02:49 PM
The CSRA 305 Sprints handle this task well.

Jack Gunn had a class of "Sportsman" that were sprint cars, small block engines, with starters.

Those two ideas should meld well - 305 Sprints with starters.

JMO
Title: Re: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: dirttrackrocker on July 15, 2011, 01:09:21 PM
They still run them at a few tracks. They are called Super Sportsman. Ugliest cars I have ever seen. A sprint car with a wing thats only about about 2 feet wide.
Title: Re: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: Half Fast Bob on July 15, 2011, 03:37:58 PM
Like we need yet another class of cars. This is my opinion... if we started dumping all of these half thought out new classes that never quite caught on, we'd start filling up the remaining classes again because if you are hell bent on racing, you'll figure out a way. Racers are going to race. They'll just pick the class closest to their budgets, and race there.

If I asked everyone here whether they liked Coke or Pepsi, everyone would pick a brand. But the shelves are loaded with others... so someone is buying it or they wouldn't make it. Racing isn't any different. People will pick alternate classes if they have those options, and that's how fragmented fields are invented. If you want full fields again, pick one street stock class, one sportsmen class and one modified class. If that's all people have for options, they'll pick one and race.

One more thing before I quit. I'm tired of people complaining about starterless sprint cars and thinking they waste too much time. Start timing your modified classes and compare them to your sprint car specials. When a modified get a flat, they draw the yellow to repair it. And why is it that modified drivers can never remember where they were when they yellow came out? Even the one way radio is useless here because someone will contest their restart position every time. Add all that wasted time up and the modified class triples the amount of wasted time that sprints do.
Title: Re: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: thewackyracer on July 15, 2011, 04:14:37 PM

I like coca cola, and racing. Anything with an engine.
Title: Re: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: m15mod on July 16, 2011, 09:37:08 AM
I didn't read any posts, and here's what i have to say...305 sprints! too late already have a limited/low dollar sprint class. I supply parts to plenty of 305 racers who build their own engines. They have less money in a home built 305 than what it costs to buy a dumb dumb engine...Oops i mean a create
Title: Re: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: uticamike on July 16, 2011, 11:15:10 AM
I didn't read any posts, and here's what i have to say...305 sprints! too late already have a limited/low dollar sprint class. I supply parts to plenty of 305 racers who build their own engines. They have less money in a home built 305 than what it costs to buy a dumb dumb engine...Oops i mean a create

If you don't read any posts, how did you know the discussion was on the 305 sprints and crates were mentioned?
Title: Re: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: m15mod on July 16, 2011, 01:12:45 PM
UM, The sprints are covered 410, 360, 305. They are open for all to compete as racing was intended. If you can't afford to race a 305 sprint don't do it. Race something that you can afford. Go kart, street stock, bicycle, etc.
Create engines are a promoters dream...The car costs the same or more, tires cost the same, gas/alky costs the same, pit passes cost the same, crash repair bill is double. So where's the catch????? PAY OFF. Build a create dummy and we will pay you 1/3 of what we pay the open cars.
Racing does not need another series of low paying slow as hell cars.
Title: Re: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: uticamike on July 16, 2011, 01:48:04 PM
UM, The sprints are covered 410, 360, 305. They are open for all to compete as racing was intended. If you can't afford to race a 305 sprint don't do it. Race something that you can afford. Go kart, street stock, bicycle, etc.
Create engines are a promoters dream...The car costs the same or more, tires cost the same, gas/alky costs the same, pit passes cost the same, crash repair bill is double. So where's the catch????? PAY OFF. Build a create dummy and we will pay you 1/3 of what we pay the open cars.
Racing does not need another series of low paying slow as hell cars.

 ::)
Title: Re: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: racerbob10 on July 16, 2011, 10:04:56 PM
See Utica-think the problems are just in mod land- racin is screwed up in all classes! :)
Title: Re: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: Chargincharlie on July 17, 2011, 07:46:12 AM
I don't see any Sprint org. That is hurting for cars  but if they do start a crate class 604 or a 525 would put on a good show crates on dirt are far better than crates on asphalt.
Title: Re: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: racer110 on July 17, 2011, 03:53:15 PM
I don't understand the point of a 604 or 525 spec engine class when you can build a good quality competitive 305 for around 7 grand.  If you can't afford a 305 deal then you probably shouldn't be running a Sprint car.
Title: Re: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: Thunderfied on July 19, 2011, 03:03:59 PM
Any race car or division with a crate motor or spec motor sucks. Just ask Bridgeport Speedway in NJ. Bridgeport is close to shutting down after moving from Big Block Mods to crate Mods. They average about 200 fans a week now with the crate Mods. 
Title: Re: What do ya think about a Crate 604 / Sprint Car Division????
Post by: CARNESRACING on July 20, 2011, 01:59:04 AM
Couple more sponsors and i would be in... I love the crate! I would def be interested in racing somewhere in a sprint style car.